Tesla Supercharger Access

[sor]

With my Volvo provided NACS adapter, there is a code laser engraved on it and I had to register this on some janky website before it would work. Or at least that’s what I was told, I just did it because the dealership “tech” person was adamant and I really wanted to try a supercharger with my Volvo.

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[daveo4EV]

With my Volvo provided NACS adapter, there is a code laser engraved on it and I had to register this on some janky website before it would work. Or at least that’s what I was told, I just did it because the dealership “tech” person was adamant and I really wanted to try a supercharger with my Volvo.

utter BS

 

[sor]

utter BS

Maybe, but these things don’t have to be dumb. Maybe one was torn down and was, I would tear mine down but it isn’t worth it to me. Tesla could easily be reading an ID off the adapter if it is able to provide one.

Maybe if I get a Porsche adapter I will try it on the Volvo.

And trust me I’ve dissected my fair share and reverse engineered . I got my v3 charger (EVSE) working on my j1772 cars before they supported it by adding some electronics on the comms pins.

This is what the inside of a Tesla charging handle looks like. I was able to extract this board and created a clicker that opens Tesla charging ports just to punk my friend He was confused and then very amused.

 

[daveo4EV]

Maybe, but these things don’t have to be dumb. Maybe one was torn down and was, I would tear mine down but it isn’t worth it to me. Tesla could easily be reading an ID off the adapter if it is able to provide one.

Maybe if I get a Porsche adapter I will try it on the Volvo.

And trust me I’ve dissected my fair share and reverse engineered . I got my v3 charger (EVSE) working on my j1772 cars before they supported it by adding some electronics on the comms pins.

This is what the inside of a Tesla charging handle looks like. I was able to extract this board and created a clicker that opens Tesla charging ports just to punk my friend He was confused and then very amused.

given the voltage going through these things and the lack of space they kinda do have to be dumb - check out some of the youTube videos - the main design issue is keeping the 400/800/1000V DC pins electrically isolated from one another - other than that they are simple pass-through devices…there is no ID being read off these things…all that is done over the comm pins and it's the ID (if any) of the the vehicle via the CCS protocol's support…

 

[sor]

Keep in mind that the actual authentication of the charging session doesn’t have to be a part of the charging protocol or CCs standard. It was never this way with EA before plug and charge(and even after plug and charge for CCS there are a few different incompatible implementations ). For example with Volvo the Tesla charging session MUST be started through the Volvo app, you tell it the code of the unit you’re on. It could easily be reading an adapter code on the adapter provided only to Volvos when you plug in.

it could be much simpler than that. But I was surprised that they were onboarding cars by manufacturer in the first place. Tesla could be doing something different for each vehicle for all we know.

 

[daveo4EV]

to date no one has found any active electronics in any of the NACS adapter tear downs - that doens't mean there couldn't be some - but so far none have any…

the car sends some minimal ID information to the EV charger - Tesla could be demanding "meta data" as part of the supercharger handshake which is how they identify the vendor/manufacturer for purposes of authorization - to date as supercharger access has come online most of the vehicles have needed a software update - my educated guess is these updates provide the supercharger "handshake" information as agreed to as part of being a "NACS" partner…just because - my CCS juju is low on technical specifics but I'm sure there is plenty of ways one can be 99% CCS compatible with one minor change to handshake with a Supercharger if the native CCS protocol doesn't "give up enough metadata"…

there is pretty much no question there are some minor changes to the vehicle's to be compatible with the superchargers as a NACS partner - but the adapters have already proven interchangeable and completely passive/dumb.

https://www.taycanforum.com/forum/t...the-physcial-design.16080/page-43#post-346291

post #635 is one tear down video where they found absolutely nothing inside these adapters - just electrical connections of appropriate robustness for the power levels involved…

lessons learned from the video:

Summary:

• These are indeed passive devices, with no information being passed through about the device itself.
• The Lectron and A2Z models were just as good if not better than the Tesla OEM for Ford & GM.
• The unnamed Godzilla Superpower discount model had some concerning aspects.

any "identify" information would be part of the signaling over the two low-voltage comm connectors in the standard 5-pin CCS physical design.

 

[sor]

Add to that the Volvo implementation for supercharging not only requires you to use the Volvo app, but also to link a ChargePoint account, and ChargePoint is the actual one billing the supercharger session, you can see why I am just throwing up my hands and saying Tesla could be doing anything they want to authorize any vehicle in any way they choose

 

[sor]

It may not be authorizing the adapter live. Tesla just may require my Volvo account to have an adapter registered.

 

[jwatte]

ere is no ID being read off these things

That's not entirely the full story. The power pins (the two big ones on the Tesla connector) are straight-through, full-contact, no-smarts, dumb pieces of copper (ideally gold plated!) for sure.
On the J-1772 connector, plus CCS connector, there are five connectors in the "round" bit, and two big ones in the "bottom" bit. This connector sends DC through the bottom fat pins, but sends AC charging through two of the top roundly-arranged pins, which aren't as fat, and can't carry the full current of DCFC. The Tesla sends both kinds through the same two pins, which is technically superior IMO.

But there's a few other connectors. Those are for signaling. Initially, that signaling was a simple PWM waveform where frequency/duty cycle signaled what was available and what was wanted. This was a super robust system, but couldn't communicate any additional information. It also couldn't let hackers into your car, so I quite like that design.

But, plug-and-charge can't work without digital communications that can carry IDs, so additional protocols are defined on top of the non-power connectors. This protocol allows the car to identify itself, and even to sign that claim so it's not easy to "clone" someone else's VIN/certificate to charge on their dime. This protocol can, at least in theory, be translated by an adapter, because it's a simple serial protocol and the signaling circuitry is not high-power, so a circuit the size of a USB thumb drive can easily be molded into the handle/connector.

For what it's worth, Tesla destination/wall chargers initially speak a protocol that's different from plain J-1772. When the Tesla wall charger doesn't manage to initiate a charge within 30 seconds or so, it will switch to J-1772 signaling, and this is what lets NACS->J1772 connectors work for destination/AC charging. And, when the Tesla charger is a pay-for charger with a timeout of 30 seconds or less when initiating a session, those adapters don't work. (Ask me how I know :-D)

 

[EvSwimmers]

I have a Volvo XC40 and an AToZ typhoon Pro. It works just fine at superchargers using the Tesla app. Maybe @sor needed an ID from a Volvo supplied adapter to enable use of the Volvo (or chargepoint?) app.
The supercharger has no idea what kind of adapter is plugged in, but it might require the car to be registered to allow third party billing. So it's Volvo, not Tesla or the supercharger, that makes you use their adapter (it at least own one, you can probably use any adapter when actually charging!).

 

[alxman]

That's not entirely the full story. The power pins (the two big ones on the Tesla connector) are straight-through, full-contact, no-smarts, dumb pieces of copper (ideally gold plated!) for sure.
On the J-1772 connector, plus CCS connector, there are five connectors in the "round" bit, and two big ones in the "bottom" bit. This connector sends DC through the bottom fat pins, but sends AC charging through two of the top roundly-arranged pins, which aren't as fat, and can't carry the full current of DCFC. The Tesla sends both kinds through the same two pins, which is technically superior IMO.

But there's a few other connectors. Those are for signaling. Initially, that signaling was a simple PWM waveform where frequency/duty cycle signaled what was available and what was wanted. This was a super robust system, but couldn't communicate any additional information. It also couldn't let hackers into your car, so I quite like that design.

But, plug-and-charge can't work without digital communications that can carry IDs, so additional protocols are defined on top of the non-power connectors. This protocol allows the car to identify itself, and even to sign that claim so it's not easy to "clone" someone else's VIN/certificate to charge on their dime. This protocol can, at least in theory, be translated by an adapter, because it's a simple serial protocol and the signaling circuitry is not high-power, so a circuit the size of a USB thumb drive can easily be molded into the handle/connector.

For what it's worth, Tesla destination/wall chargers initially speak a protocol that's different from plain J-1772. When the Tesla wall charger doesn't manage to initiate a charge within 30 seconds or so, it will switch to J-1772 signaling, and this is what lets NACS->J1772 connectors work for destination/AC charging. And, when the Tesla charger is a pay-for charger with a timeout of 30 seconds or less when initiating a session, those adapters don't work. (Ask me how I know :-D)

How do you know?

 

[sor]

I have a Volvo XC40 and an AToZ typhoon Pro. It works just fine at superchargers using the Tesla app. Maybe @sor needed an ID from a Volvo supplied adapter to enable use of the Volvo (or chargepoint?) app.
The supercharger has no idea what kind of adapter is plugged in, but it might require the car to be registered to allow third party billing. So it's Volvo, not Tesla or the supercharger, that makes you use their adapter (it at least own one, you can probably use any adapter when actually charging!).

Yeah, this is just how things were presented to me when buying an EX90 after Volvo was onboarded. Free adapter provided, must register it and use the Volvo app to activate the Tesla unit. On non-magic dock SC of course.

I don’t have an account with Tesla and haven’t used supercharging since testing it that once.

Makes total sense that someone with a Volvo who perhaps did not get the free adapter from Volvo would be free to use whatever they want.

Just pulled out the documents to refresh my memory, the sheet that says I have to register to activate the adapter is from Volvo and it specifically says they link it to my account in order to notify me of recalls if the adapter needs one. So this is all from the Volvo side and I doubt they can know if I’m using this specific adapter or not, but they are clearly pushing people to bill Supercharger sessions through their app and ChargePoint.

Back to Porsche, remembering the ChargePoint/Porsche app feature rolled out recently, it will be interesting to see how they approach it.

 

[skshimer]

I appreciate all the technical details of what people have found on adapters. I don’t know all the technical details of the charging adapters but I would be cautious with a 2nd party adapter. If you don’t have an approved, registered adapter the car manufacturer will probably not pay for damage resulting from DC charging. It does happen. A few extra bucks for protecting my warranty on a $110k vehicle is worth it.

 

[skshimer]

That's not entirely the full story. The power pins (the two big ones on the Tesla connector) are straight-through, full-contact, no-smarts, dumb pieces of copper (ideally gold plated!) for sure.
On the J-1772 connector, plus CCS connector, there are five connectors in the "round" bit, and two big ones in the "bottom" bit. This connector sends DC through the bottom fat pins, but sends AC charging through two of the top roundly-arranged pins, which aren't as fat, and can't carry the full current of DCFC. The Tesla sends both kinds through the same two pins, which is technically superior IMO.

But there's a few other connectors. Those are for signaling. Initially, that signaling was a simple PWM waveform where frequency/duty cycle signaled what was available and what was wanted. This was a super robust system, but couldn't communicate any additional information. It also couldn't let hackers into your car, so I quite like that design.

But, plug-and-charge can't work without digital communications that can carry IDs, so additional protocols are defined on top of the non-power connectors. This protocol allows the car to identify itself, and even to sign that claim so it's not easy to "clone" someone else's VIN/certificate to charge on their dime. This protocol can, at least in theory, be translated by an adapter, because it's a simple serial protocol and the signaling circuitry is not high-power, so a circuit the size of a USB thumb drive can easily be molded into the handle/connector.

For what it's worth, Tesla destination/wall chargers initially speak a protocol that's different from plain J-1772. When the Tesla wall charger doesn't manage to initiate a charge within 30 seconds or so, it will switch to J-1772 signaling, and this is what lets NACS->J1772 connectors work for destination/AC charging. And, when the Tesla charger is a pay-for charger with a timeout of 30 seconds or less when initiating a session, those adapters don't work. (Ask me how I know :-D)

I have identified my vehicle as a Macan EV in the Tesla app. The app displays pay to charge AC chargers available to the public. Were you not able to charge at one of these? For my home Gen3 charger I set it to any vehicle and use a TeslaTap mini as an adapter. It begins charging immediately.

 

[skshimer]

That’s exactly how brands make money, scaring customers and making hefty margins by putting a sticker on a 3rd party adapter.

There is quality 3rd party and cheap 3rd party.

Get the former, you’ll save $$ and have something at least as good as the one from Porsche.

Where have you heard the price that Porsche will ask for the adapter?

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