Long trip / cold start

[dbsb3233]

Is there any study that shows to is more efficient to spend energy (from that finite reserve of the cold battery) to warm up the battery before drawing a higher current to move the car (which would warm it up somewhat)? If the wind chill prevents the battery from warming up while driving (if one had not pre-conditioned it), would it not also cool down the battery once driving (and waste the effort to warm it up in the first place).

I can tell you that in the Macan's case (and I would assume all EVs that have battery preconditioning capability) that while slow, the preconditioning system is strong enough to overcome the wind chill effect of 10F-20F temps flowing underneath the battery pack. My pack temp moved from 28F to 70F in the half hour before arrival at the EA station on a recent trip when I set the destination at a distant point and the car started warming the pack. (Kudos to Porsche for adding battery temp to the dash, BTW. That's rare.)

Is it actually more efficient though (uses fewer total kWh for the whole trip)? I really don't know. But it is faster than charging at half the speed, and that time savings does seem to be a net time savings (i.e. more than the time lost by burning a few extra kWh to do the warming). Even if it costs a few extra kWh in total, I'm OK with that to keep the charging stops from being 45 minutes instead.

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[MyA]

An important aspect of the charging planner is setting the “SOC at destination” value right. In Europe, where there is a fast charger every 10 km, I set this value to 3%.
If this value is set too high, the car may decide not to preheat the battery, as reaching the destination and maintaining the specified SOC at the destination are priorities.

This is very interesting!

although my SoC at charger destination is set low (not as low as yours, mostly 10%), I will often override the planned charging staton so to reach a better one selected by NAV (location, kW, etc). I still program it in the NAV but maybe I should aim at charging at a lower SoC (20%?)

 

[Petzi]

While Porsche wants to take care of all of the HV battery management and reconditioning, a recent comparison from the ADAC did not give the MACAN good grades. Its consumption was too high. And while preconditioning was not active and charging was done in this Cold Weather simulation - it is disappointing to see it does not compare with other models, nor the Taycan.
I am currently having 23-24 KWh/100km in around 0 degree surrounding cold weather with Macan4S.

https://www.adac.de/rund-ums-fahrze...ktroauto-reichweite-im-winter-adac-test-2026/
(test is in German)

I'm having trouble understanding this post:
1.) What does "preconditioning was not active" mean? Why not? What sense does that make in winter? And how is the statement „While Porsche wants to take care of all of the HV battery management and reconditioning“ consistent with no charging planning, which was obviosly not included in this test. that may be the reason why smart #5 has also mediocre results, one pf the fastest chargers on the market.
2.) If you look closely at the "test," almost all (relevant) vehicles have very similar values, even though everything is mixed together here in terms of performance, size, and battery size.
3.) There is literally no EV that consumes less than 22-23 kWh/100 km in winter.

 

[Petzi]

This is very interesting!

although my SoC at charger destination is set low (not as low as yours, mostly 10%), I will often override the planned charging staton so to reach a better one selected by NAV (location, kW, etc). I still program it in the NAV but maybe I should aim at charging at a lower SoC (20%?)

Not sure I understand. I just wanted to say that it can happen that the car prioritizes SOC at the destination and therefore does not preheat the battery. This simply results in a slightly longer charging time.
Otherwise, I do exactly what the charging planner wants. Porsche's goal is not to charge as infrequently as possible, but rather to optimize the entire driving time to the destination. This means that instead of one long stop, two short stops are often planned.

 

[FHZoelly]

I'm having trouble understanding this post:
1.) What does "preconditioning was not active" mean? Why not? What sense does that make in winter? And how is the statement „While Porsche wants to take care of all of the HV battery management and reconditioning“ consistent with no charging planning, which was obviosly not included in this test. that may be the reason why smart #5 has also mediocre results, one pf the fastest chargers on the market.
2.) If you look closely at the "test," almost all (relevant) vehicles have very similar values, even though everything is mixed together here in terms of performance, size, and battery size.
3.) There is literally no EV that consumes less than 22-23 kWh/100 km in winter.

Likewise!
Regarding the ADAC test: Have a look yourself - I assume you understand German ?

Some details here regarding the ADAC test procedure:

• Aufladen auf 100 Prozent und Vorkonditionierung des E-Autos für 14 bis 18 Stunden bei 0 Grad Celsius.
• Es wurde bewusst ein Kaltstart ohne Akkuheizung gemacht. Würde der Akku noch am Stromnetz vorgeheizt, kann die Reichweite erhöht werden, was normalerweise zu empfehlen, aber oft nicht möglich ist.
• Fahrt, bis die Batterieleistung so weit gedrosselt wurde und nicht mehr ausreichte, um der Sollgeschwindigkeit zu folgen.
• Anschließend Schnellladen an einem Alpitronic 300 kW Hypercharger. Die Ladekurve wurde ab 10 Prozent gewertet und die in 20 Minuten nachgeladene Energie ermittelt.
• Mögliche Batteriekonditionierungen fürs Schnellladen waren nicht aktiv, da das die Reichweite reduziert hätte. Die Akkus waren jedoch zu Ladebeginn von der Fahrt ausreichend erwärmt.
• Ermittlung des Stromverbrauchs für die gefahrene Strecke auf Basis der nachgeladenen DC-Ladung. Darin sind DC-Ladeverluste enthalten.
• Umrechnung der am DC-Charger nachgeladenen Energie zur Ermittlung der in 20 Minuten nachgeladenen Reichweite.

The AUDI A6 AVANT E-tron averaged at 23,2 kwH/100km in the winter test.

 

[Petzi]

Likewise!
Regarding the ADAC test: Have a look yourself - I assume you understand German ?

Some details here regarding the ADAC test procedure:

• Aufladen auf 100 Prozent und Vorkonditionierung des E-Autos für 14 bis 18 Stunden bei 0 Grad Celsius.
• Es wurde bewusst ein Kaltstart ohne Akkuheizung gemacht. Würde der Akku noch am Stromnetz vorgeheizt, kann die Reichweite erhöht werden, was normalerweise zu empfehlen, aber oft nicht möglich ist.
• Fahrt, bis die Batterieleistung so weit gedrosselt wurde und nicht mehr ausreichte, um der Sollgeschwindigkeit zu folgen.
• Anschließend Schnellladen an einem Alpitronic 300 kW Hypercharger. Die Ladekurve wurde ab 10 Prozent gewertet und die in 20 Minuten nachgeladene Energie ermittelt.
• Mögliche Batteriekonditionierungen fürs Schnellladen waren nicht aktiv, da das die Reichweite reduziert hätte. Die Akkus waren jedoch zu Ladebeginn von der Fahrt ausreichend erwärmt.
• Ermittlung des Stromverbrauchs für die gefahrene Strecke auf Basis der nachgeladenen DC-Ladung. Darin sind DC-Ladeverluste enthalten.
• Umrechnung der am DC-Charger nachgeladenen Energie zur Ermittlung der in 20 Minuten nachgeladenen Reichweite.

The AUDI A6 AVANT E-tron averaged at 23,2 kwH/100km in the winter test.

ok. did read it again. this test does not make sense. charging planning is a crucial part of ev mobility. a test that excludes this just proves that the tester do not understand how ev should work.
but it is amazing that exactly the cars that perform best in most individual tests esp. concerning charging speed, like the #5 or the macan, have bad results here.

 

[dbsb3233]

This is very interesting!

although my SoC at charger destination is set low (not as low as yours, mostly 10%), I will often override the planned charging staton so to reach a better one selected by NAV (location, kW, etc). I still program it in the NAV but maybe I should aim at charging at a lower SoC (20%?)

You may be able to manipulate it by setting a much higher arrival % at the charger. For instance, if leaving at 80%, and want to stop at a charger that's gonna take roughly 50% to get to, you might be able to set the "arrive at charger" target to something like 30%.

 

[MyA]

You may be able to manipulate it by setting a much higher arrival % at the charger. For instance, if leaving at 80%, and want to stop at a charger that's gonna take roughly 50% to get to, you might be able to set the "arrive at charger" target to something like 30%.

And what do you think of this alternative:

Let the car sit overnight at 90% SoC
Right after leaving, hit the very close DCFC charge and get it up to 100% and get the battery temp up at the same time. It will probably charge v e r y s l o w l y as the battery will be very cold upon arrival at the station…

Or charge it up tonight, depart on a cold status
and it will heat up while riding smooth and easy until the other DFCF 100+ Km away

 

[MatC21]

I just did a longer drive at around 0 degrees and all I can say is that preheating battery works perfectly if you just use the charging planner.
~30min before the stop the battery started heating up and reached 22 degrees at the charger. That was enough to start charging at 274 kW.

I dont believe that a cold battery causes higher consumption. My consumption was the same before and after the stop (after the stop the battery peaked 50 degrees and then cooled down while driving).
Otherwise Porsche would pre heat the battery on an AC charger. They wont do this as this costs more energy keeping the heat up until you reach a charger hours later. I trust their engineers to have done the math and do what makes most sense.

Macan is not a range king, no SUV is. I am sure even the new iX3 wont be going a lot more than 400km at 0 degrees and 160kmh. My Macan did 300km on a 100 to routhly empty under these conditions.

 

[rcomeau]

I just did a longer drive at around 0 degrees and all I can say is that preheating battery works perfectly if you just use the charging planner.
~30min before the stop the battery started heating up and reached 22 degrees at the charger. That was enough to start charging at 274 kW.

I dont believe that a cold battery causes higher consumption. My consumption was the same before and after the stop (after the stop the battery peaked 50 degrees and then cooled down while driving).
Otherwise Porsche would pre heat the battery on an AC charger. They wont do this as this costs more energy keeping the heat up until you reach a charger hours later. I trust their engineers to have done the math and do what makes most sense.

Macan is not a range king, no SUV is. I am sure even the new iX3 wont be going a lot more than 400km at 0 degrees and 160kmh. My Macan did 300km on a 100 to routhly empty under these conditions.

I think that there are two somewhat independent things going on in cold weather. First, the car consumes more to heat the cabin and presumably to manage the battery. Second (and I am, less sure about this) the battery looses effective capacity in the cold. The battery likely loses efficiency in the cold, so it cannot deliver all the energy that was stored into it, so range is reduces as electrons are lost in the cold battery. This would imply that the range can be improved if the battery is preconditioned before departure, more so if the car is plugged in before leaving so the preheating is powered by the charger and not the battery. So in the summer, you can estimate range given the consumption (assuming the battery is able otherwise deliver all its capacity) and you would see a lower range in winter (even if consumption is the same) in winter. Combining more consumption to heat people/machine and lower effective battery capacity means a double hit to range.

 

[dbsb3233]

And what do you think of this alternative:

Let the car sit overnight at 90% SoC
Right after leaving, hit the very close DCFC charge and get it up to 100% and get the battery temp up at the same time. It will probably charge v e r y s l o w l y as the battery will be very cold upon arrival at the station…

Or charge it up tonight, depart on a cold status
and it will heat up while riding smooth and easy until the other DFCF 100+ Km away

Personally, I'd just charge up overnight and leave cold in the morning (except cabin heat). It's not worth playing games that don't work half the time anyway. As long as you have enough chargers along the way to be safe, just go with that.

 

[MyA]

Personally, I'd just charge up overnight and leave cold in the morning (except cabin heat). It's not worth playing games that don't work half the time anyway. As long as you have enough chargers along the way to be safe, just go with that.

Youyou know what?
After all those discussions, I think this is just what I will do. I’ll charge up to te nearest DCFC when I return from dinner, go to bed early and hit the road and play it by ear thereafter!

I’ll let the PCM guide me… Use the seat heater +++
If interested, I’ll keep you updated once it is done.
I’ll probably hit the tail of that big US snow storm for my second half. Heavy véhicule with good snow boots (Nokia Hakka R5 SUV) and smooth on the pedal!

 

[Yves]

I have posted this over and over again:
- I posted a video that shows that the energy spent on warming up the battery has a positive outcome, the battery will be able to give more energy than what the pre heating spends ... that was done with a Skoda but that doesn't matter.
- yes program a DC charge point and sit in the car, at that temp it probably is more like an hour
- DC charge at nearest DC charge point
- as you cannot AC charge overnight you will loose a lot of heat ...

When starting to drive use the PCM you want to have the time to heat the battery ...

I personally have done this and works ... my consumption is less with preheating and heated battery and the range is only impacted by the colder air ... making 350+km possible in the cold ...
and saving at least 30 minutes at the first stop as DC fast charging will rip to 270kw ...

 

[Jetced]

Sharing my experience in cold weather quickly.

Normally my Macan sits in an underground garage and plugged-in with trip planner active (charging and heating) had no problems so far.

Two weekends ago though I drove to mountain resort with no charging possibilities and no garage. I arrived with 65ish % and the car sat outside at -15C at night and -5C during the day for 2 days.

On the day of departure the battery temp was -3C and still at 65%. I used the Porsche Nav to plan the trip with a HPC stop (350kW) in about 200km.
The battery only slowly heated up to 0C and maybe 20mins before the first charging stop the temp went up to near optimal range. I plugged in at 5% and even though the battery temp rose to 33C, all I could pull was about 150-170 until 30% with a quick drop thereafter.

I believe the core battery temperature was still very low, despite preconditioning. The fast and cold highway trip did not help either. I’ve never experienced such slow charging performance on this car before.

 

[MatC21]

I think that there are two somewhat independent things going on in cold weather. First, the car consumes more to heat the cabin and presumably to manage the battery. Second (and I am, less sure about this) the battery looses effective capacity in the cold. The battery likely loses efficiency in the cold, so it cannot deliver all the energy that was stored into it, so range is reduces as electrons are lost in the cold battery. This would imply that the range can be improved if the battery is preconditioned before departure, more so if the car is plugged in before leaving so the preheating is powered by the charger and not the battery. So in the summer, you can estimate range given the consumption (assuming the battery is able otherwise deliver all its capacity) and you would see a lower range in winter (even if consumption is the same) in winter. Combining more consumption to heat people/machine and lower effective battery capacity means a double hit to range.

3 things. An important bit not to neglect is the increased air density in cold weather. The difference in consumption, purely on air density is a couple of kilowats per hour consumption from 20 degrees to -10. People generally underestimate/forget about this. Here is the math/physics for the A6 (which I did for a different forum once):


ho = p / RT => circa 10% more dense air at -8°C compared to 20°C.

rho20 ~ 1.2 KG/m^3, rho-8 ~ 1.33 KG/m^3

F = cd * A * rho/2 * v^2, required power is F * v

cd value is 0.21, A (front area) is 2,48 m^2, v = 170 kmh = 47,22 m/s

20 degrees: F20 ~ 33 kW

-8 degrees: F-8 ~ 36 kW

that gives a difference of 1,76kWh/100km for an A6. On a Macan this difference is even higher.

No other car can defeat this physics as well. Less aerodynamic cars like SUVs are obviously punished more. This is why limousines/wagons like the ID7 or the A6 are the range kings in winter.

Sharing my experience in cold weather quickly.

Normally my Macan sits in an underground garage and plugged-in with trip planner active (charging and heating) had no problems so far.

Two weekends ago though I drove to mountain resort with no charging possibilities and no garage. I arrived with 65ish % and the car sat outside at -15C at night and -5C during the day for 2 days.

On the day of departure the battery temp was -3C and still at 65%. I used the Porsche Nav to plan the trip with a HPC stop (350kW) in about 200km.
The battery only slowly heated up to 0C and maybe 20mins before the first charging stop the temp went up to near optimal range. I plugged in at 5% and even though the battery temp rose to 33C, all I could pull was about 150-170 until 30% with a quick drop thereafter.

I believe the core battery temperature was still very low, despite preconditioning. The fast and cold highway trip did not help either. I’ve never experienced such slow charging performance on this car before.

Could also be the charger not delivering full performance.

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